I just Watched Soren Johnson (Civilization, Dragon Age) give a speech at GDC and he was talking about Pre-Luck vs Post Luck If you Like to Watch it here, skip to 23 minutes for the part. And I thought to myself.. We don't use Pre-luck in Roleplay do we?
Pre-Luck is like Yahtzee, you roll the dice, then determine how the results fit into your strategy. Should I use up my 5's slot, for 3 5's, or would it be better for my 3 of a kind slot.. because 15+ score is ok.
Post Luck is Make the decision, then roll the dice to see if the decision was good or not.
Soren states, that Pre-luck often makes the player feel more engaged, and Post luck makes players feel more often like victims.
I can agree, I've seen players blame the dice, blame a bad session, blame the game, blame other players, blame the gamesmaster.. no-one likes to blame themselves.. and when it comes down to it, If you just rolled a critical failure and chopped off your own leg, .. no wait.. .. blame the system, the DM and then the dice.. because hey, how can you blame yourself? Any system & DM that lets you chop off your own leg, even though you've been sword training for years.. I'm still sore over that David!
So, Post luck can bite..
Pre Luck.. How would it even work? I make an attack roll, and Then decide what I'm going to do? would that even work? Would it make sense..
So.. lets look at my DungeonWorld, In Combat.. I can make an ATTACK [8], I can apply my Weapon Hit [+7] to make it a Weapon attack, and since I have Weapon Mastery - Swords +2, I can add +2 if I use swords. I also Have Melee[+9] to use as attack and I have Brawling +2, So normally I choose to make an attack against an opponent, I declare a sword attack, and begin my swing. My opponent, knowing that its coming, declares his defence, He has a Shield, so he'll choose to Block[-3] or to Parry[-1] Since my Attack 8 +7 +2 is a pretty decent score, he'll want to reduce my chance as much as possible, so he chooses Block, so my final result is a 14 or less.
In Real Terms, I begin my swing.. My opponent sizes up my swing based on what he's seen so far, and decides the best course of action is to throw his shield in the way, letting it take all the damage. But I'm a skilled fighter, I can see that he's raising his shield, and I prepare my swing to go to where his shield was, not is going to be, likely to hit him... Wait a second.. did I just 'adjust' what I was doing, after noticing the opponents move?
Normally to allow an action such as aiming the location, the player has to declare it before the roll, taking a -4 to the chance.. So obviously not yet.
But I have yet to roll the dice.. I don;t know the results.. how could it be, So.. If I roll and pass.. I adjusted my action, but if I roll and fail, then I didn't.
This is pretty much how most combats work.. The Numbers are crunched, the dice are rolled, and we 'interpret' the result in the story. Poor players just say "hit" or "miss", Roleplayers describe each swing of the die.. but if you're swinging away, roll after roll.. gawd that can get tiring fast..
Combat should be fast.. Have a look at any Vikings episode. I can't stand a combat going beyond 2-3 rounds (unless both players are decent fighters, and decent roleplayers). If I hit you, you should be downed, death or not, the pain will incapacitate you.
So could Pre-luck, be the way to go?
So imagine my scenario from before.. I have a sword, but notice that my chance to hit with melee is a little better.. So lets say I roll the dice, and it comes up 19.. I missed.. but what if.. Instead I could change my mind.. First I declare that I'm raising my sword to attack, and my opponent sees it coming, I roll, I have a 19.. I can see that my sword attack is going to fail... so I instead use my Melee. Melee attacks are quicker.. so Blocking will not work, he won't get the shield there in time, so I started with my sword.. cost me an action, but when I saw my opponents shield, I jabbed him with my fist instead.. the jab, knocks enough wind out of him, that in the following round, he's unable to make an attack, and also has a -1.. so I again declare my initial intention, roll the dice, and get a 10.. no chance.. my opponent takes a sword to the.. (location roll).. but wait.. a 10 is a pass by 4.. surely I can now also 'change the results after the dice - Pre-Luck' to declare Where I hit..
My System allows players to include actions and Maneuvers to adjust the combat situation, making far more interesting styles of attack. feints, dodges, grapples (without a list that takes weeks to decipher), but most players don't take advantage of the list.. anything less than a 14 or less, becomes a slog fest, so when you throw in the 'called shot' -4 to hit, and 'damaging blow' -4 to hit, which are typically reserved for when your opponent is reeling from the last hit, and your chance to hit gets a 'prone target' +6.. + no chance to dodge.., No one wants to try to get a 6 or less called shot, damaging blow.. they'd rather a 'normal hit' 14 or less.
But with a Pre-luck.. roll the dice, now choose how you distribute your success.. maybe combats might have something more to them...
Two additional Factors.. When players describe their 'attack' or 'defence' they get a +2. This usually works because everyone wants the +2 if they have low odds.. and if you have high odds.. you probably don;t care how cool your attack was.. With Pre-Luck.. players would only describe their attacks if they 'need' that extra pass by two to enable some other action/result.. it becomes a tactical choice, rather than a roleplayed bonus.
Enemies can also use this.. remember when I said that the opponent had a Block of -3, and a Parry of -1, If the attack roll passed, but only by 1, the enemy could simply parry it, leaving himself the block for a further more dangerous attack.. giving Enemies a slight advantage in combat also.
A Pre-Luck Roleplay System
So First Off, what is PreLuck vs Post Luck.Pre-Luck is like Yahtzee, you roll the dice, then determine how the results fit into your strategy. Should I use up my 5's slot, for 3 5's, or would it be better for my 3 of a kind slot.. because 15+ score is ok.
Post Luck is Make the decision, then roll the dice to see if the decision was good or not.
Soren states, that Pre-luck often makes the player feel more engaged, and Post luck makes players feel more often like victims.
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| "I made my owner do nothing but chop herself in the leg!" |
I can agree, I've seen players blame the dice, blame a bad session, blame the game, blame other players, blame the gamesmaster.. no-one likes to blame themselves.. and when it comes down to it, If you just rolled a critical failure and chopped off your own leg, .. no wait.. .. blame the system, the DM and then the dice.. because hey, how can you blame yourself? Any system & DM that lets you chop off your own leg, even though you've been sword training for years.. I'm still sore over that David!
So, Post luck can bite..
Pre Luck.. How would it even work? I make an attack roll, and Then decide what I'm going to do? would that even work? Would it make sense..
So.. lets look at my DungeonWorld, In Combat.. I can make an ATTACK [8], I can apply my Weapon Hit [+7] to make it a Weapon attack, and since I have Weapon Mastery - Swords +2, I can add +2 if I use swords. I also Have Melee[+9] to use as attack and I have Brawling +2, So normally I choose to make an attack against an opponent, I declare a sword attack, and begin my swing. My opponent, knowing that its coming, declares his defence, He has a Shield, so he'll choose to Block[-3] or to Parry[-1] Since my Attack 8 +7 +2 is a pretty decent score, he'll want to reduce my chance as much as possible, so he chooses Block, so my final result is a 14 or less.
In Real Terms, I begin my swing.. My opponent sizes up my swing based on what he's seen so far, and decides the best course of action is to throw his shield in the way, letting it take all the damage. But I'm a skilled fighter, I can see that he's raising his shield, and I prepare my swing to go to where his shield was, not is going to be, likely to hit him... Wait a second.. did I just 'adjust' what I was doing, after noticing the opponents move?
Normally to allow an action such as aiming the location, the player has to declare it before the roll, taking a -4 to the chance.. So obviously not yet.
But I have yet to roll the dice.. I don;t know the results.. how could it be, So.. If I roll and pass.. I adjusted my action, but if I roll and fail, then I didn't.
This is pretty much how most combats work.. The Numbers are crunched, the dice are rolled, and we 'interpret' the result in the story. Poor players just say "hit" or "miss", Roleplayers describe each swing of the die.. but if you're swinging away, roll after roll.. gawd that can get tiring fast..
Combat should be fast.. Have a look at any Vikings episode. I can't stand a combat going beyond 2-3 rounds (unless both players are decent fighters, and decent roleplayers). If I hit you, you should be downed, death or not, the pain will incapacitate you.
So could Pre-luck, be the way to go?
So imagine my scenario from before.. I have a sword, but notice that my chance to hit with melee is a little better.. So lets say I roll the dice, and it comes up 19.. I missed.. but what if.. Instead I could change my mind.. First I declare that I'm raising my sword to attack, and my opponent sees it coming, I roll, I have a 19.. I can see that my sword attack is going to fail... so I instead use my Melee. Melee attacks are quicker.. so Blocking will not work, he won't get the shield there in time, so I started with my sword.. cost me an action, but when I saw my opponents shield, I jabbed him with my fist instead.. the jab, knocks enough wind out of him, that in the following round, he's unable to make an attack, and also has a -1.. so I again declare my initial intention, roll the dice, and get a 10.. no chance.. my opponent takes a sword to the.. (location roll).. but wait.. a 10 is a pass by 4.. surely I can now also 'change the results after the dice - Pre-Luck' to declare Where I hit..
My System allows players to include actions and Maneuvers to adjust the combat situation, making far more interesting styles of attack. feints, dodges, grapples (without a list that takes weeks to decipher), but most players don't take advantage of the list.. anything less than a 14 or less, becomes a slog fest, so when you throw in the 'called shot' -4 to hit, and 'damaging blow' -4 to hit, which are typically reserved for when your opponent is reeling from the last hit, and your chance to hit gets a 'prone target' +6.. + no chance to dodge.., No one wants to try to get a 6 or less called shot, damaging blow.. they'd rather a 'normal hit' 14 or less.
But with a Pre-luck.. roll the dice, now choose how you distribute your success.. maybe combats might have something more to them...
Two additional Factors.. When players describe their 'attack' or 'defence' they get a +2. This usually works because everyone wants the +2 if they have low odds.. and if you have high odds.. you probably don;t care how cool your attack was.. With Pre-Luck.. players would only describe their attacks if they 'need' that extra pass by two to enable some other action/result.. it becomes a tactical choice, rather than a roleplayed bonus.
Enemies can also use this.. remember when I said that the opponent had a Block of -3, and a Parry of -1, If the attack roll passed, but only by 1, the enemy could simply parry it, leaving himself the block for a further more dangerous attack.. giving Enemies a slight advantage in combat also.
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